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Urban Location: how to survive in it (1 of 3: on your marks)


Fortune favours the Prepared. A discussion of Preparedness for everything from peak oil to natural disaster.

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Post Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:51 pm

Urban Location: how to survive in it (1 of 3: on your marks)

Re: $5 dollar gas high? How about $6!!!
allissun wrote:

I have an idea

How about we start a sticky, or maybe stickies, in Post-Cornucopian, or possibly in General Discussion, entitled (4 ideas): might be best to have 3 threads so they don't get confusing? ideas?
1 Location & Relocation: covers 2 to 4 below
OR
2 Urban Location: how to survive in it
3 Rural Location: how to survive in it
4 Relocation? how to assess whether or not its time to GO!

Picasso Moon wrote: I like the three threads idea better.

allissun wrote: Me too

OK, then?

1 Urban Location: how to survive in it (1 of 3: on your marks)

2 Rural Location: how to survive in it (2 of 3: get set)

3 Relocation? how to assess whether or not its time to (3 of 3) GO!

Hey! What will it take for you to get it?

"But that was in the 19th Century, and hardly like the world was facing Peak Potato, hardly like the world ran on potatoes." Picasso Moon
Slow down.... think and live from your heart, that is all that is real

TPTB and MSM and you and i want to have hope... hope is so exhausting. Foster

This is a characteristic of zombies in general, they always manage to look alive no matter what. PM

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Post Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:01 pm

Re: Urban Location: how to survive in it (1 of 3: on your ma

Start a garden, in whatever urban space you got.
Vow to vanquish the venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing
the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition! (V For Vendetta)

SHIT SUCKS! MOVE ON! - Allissun

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Post Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:46 pm

Re: Urban Location: how to survive in it (1 of 3: on your ma

Picasso Moon wrote:Start a garden, in whatever urban space you got.


Definitely a good idea to start a garden, wherever you are, regardless of whether you can make the economics 'work'. This is because the only real way to learn to garden and do agriculture is to do it. It's not hard to 'scale up' to the next level of agriculture once you've mastered the lower levels, but it's very hard to skip steps. Having a decent level of proficiency could become a matter of life and death if you're in a medium to fast crash situation.
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Post Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:15 pm

Re: Urban Location: how to survive in it (1 of 3: on your ma

Urban survival? I’m no expert, but I’ve been to 34 countries and lived in all kinds of conditions. I’ve been in situations where my host could have sold me or killed me but fed me and put me where I asked to be put… I’ve eaten dog meat, fermented boar’s flesh, sea cucumber and jellyfish. I’ve slept in alleys and behind bushes in major European cities…

Like any place, it is good to be known, useful to and liked by your neighbors. If not, it can get real hard real fast. Urban environment in flux (state of change... unfolding events) and with lots of scared inhabitants is not a good place to be. Too much going on that cannot be watched or controlled. I say, create a network (an "underground railroad") of friends in various locations and distances away from the population center for eventual movement of goods and people as needed in either direction. Keep communication lines open. Express and honor loyalty.

I tend to think the higher the density of the population, the more likely supply problems hit harder sooner. The more likely desperation will be experienced by people with 'nothing to lose." I tend to think that when water and electricity are no longer "delivered" by the usual systems, cities lose lots of inhabitants fast. Do you want to live on the 18th floor with no power and no water? Conversely, an 8" pulley, some five gallon buckets and 200' of line become the start of a business as "the folks who decide to stay" need to acknowledge that times are changing.

If you look around Manhattan, there are still quite a few 1890 - 1920s era water towers above the old brick and beam buildings. These should be refurbished or replaced with newer ones. Roof-gathered water or pumped up from below, stored water will be a good thing to have-- even if it needs to be filtered through a Berkey or distilled or boiled or simply chlorinated... eventually a person has to drink whatever water they can get. In a city that's "gone quiet" decent water can be hard to get.

I imagine a period of "lost control" (the usual police force is not available) during which being on the street could be very dangerous. I mean you could get robbed, injured, held for ransom, killed or "relocated" by the "authorities" and so, going out should be done with at least another person (buddy system) and other folks staying behind should know about where you're going, etc. Limit travel.

Urban survival can be learned about by reading accounts of folks who had to survive in bombed-out German cities after WWII, and Jews hiding from Nazis (Anne Frank), Life in Beirut 1976-1981, even the Decameron... You will become very clever, very inventive and very resourceful… all while getting more exercise and losing weight!!

Anne Frank brings up trust and OPSEC (operational security.... because the Frank family were ultimately betrayed). There will always be people who would rather be "in power" than loved and loving. Machiavelli taught that it is better to be feared than loved and most sociopathic, “leader” types buy that. Moneyed interests will buy allegiance to keep their personal worldview valid for them. Put another way. People don't like change and in periods of forced change, they tend to become reactionary, less-than-rational and bigoted. Groups are easily scapegoated. If you're Lebanese and can document being a Christian great. (You may want to take similar steps even if you're Druze or Muslim. This is just an example. Scared people distrust 'the outsider' anywhere and in a mob it can get scary fast). Owing your friends (and enemies) money, favors or skilled labor can be a form of life insurance.

Expect gangs to form and control the streets (like many do now). You may have to participate or pay-in (or both)... in one form or another.
This is not necessarily "bloods versus crips" stuff. But sociologically, it'll have the same impetus. There could be "the waterfront Presbyterians" or the "homeless dudes of Washington Park." This could really become your new family, especially if you are not from there. Many people working in big cities went there for the money/job and when the collapse happens, they will find themselves with no connections other than the ones that can be built. Think, Refugees... decision-making... instability... exodus... restabilization. Study human psychology and how tribal-types (all of us!!) interact when there are lots of unknowns.

Refugee situations always have leaders whether or not its obvious... and the first confronter you meet (unless it is a small group) is usually not the leader. You will likely be brought to the leader. Know your value as a human being to yourself and fellow human beings and be able to articulate that with (and without) words and you enhance your liklihood of survival. Practice staying calm and practice de-escalation techniques. Lots of folks get guns and practice using their firearms... but they don't put as much effort into ROE (rules of engagement) and when to be cool while being "admitted." When outnumbered and out-gunned there is really no need to pull a weapon. You should be able to graciously allow your piece to be taken from you and then you increase the liklihood of its return. Address the small group leader and say you expect it back. That's the best you can hope for if you're "the away team" and folks are all armed. Then your task is to make a friend with the decision-maker. It'll be like "we're just passin' through on our way out of town..." and the leader wants or does not want what you have.

Expect sanitation and public health to nose dive. No water means people piss and poop wherever and, in buildings, they'll either store it in plastic or not and simply designate a 'shit room.' When the stench becomes too great, they may simply move to the next abandominium.
Post WWII Germans in Cologne often returned to their apartments (even when half of it was gone) and buried their feces with calk or ash to prevent cholera, etc. American urbanites will return to the use of chamber pots. The English call the bathroom "the loo" and this comes from the lawfully required cry of gardez l'eau or 'gardy-loo'-- (look out for the water!) when at night they dumped their chamber pots to the street, "where pigs and dogs would eate of it." Urban survival tip? Wash your hands properly before you eat and drink only treated water. Be prepared to treat your water and be prepared to treat diarrhea.

General survival:
Stay as fit as possible. Comfort others. Fear not… but if you have to, try not to look like it or act like it. Be charming. Love people and being with them. Know how to tell a really good story to a really hostile, bored or tired group (even if you don’t speak their language!) Be helpful. Know how to start a fire literally and figuratively. Be able to really belt out a good song and get others to join (even if idiots have told you to “keep your day job” or “you suck.” Such folks usually drag down morale. While Sir Ernest Shackleton was interviewing men to take on his expedition, if they could or would not sing, they did not go. He knew that song is a spirit-builder and strengthener. The US Navy (Blue Jacket’s Manual) says that people with low self-esteem tend to be the least likely to survive. Holocaust survivors said that the single, unconnected and loner types were often the soonest to die.

Urban survival is about connectivity, specialization and deal-making.
Rural survival is about synchronizing with Earth, living in accord with nature, tools and skills.

There. Enough for now, eh?

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Post Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:49 pm

Re: Urban Location: how to survive in it (1 of 3: on your ma

Foster, excellent contribution. On the water thing---water is a lot more immediately important than food. I'd suggest buying some water filters and learning plans to make them. Bad or no water will kill you pretty fast.
On the subject of people---I agree on the need to establish a network. One of the most important things to determine is whether a particular person will actually feel a genuine level of gratitude towards you if you help them or if they're more likely to resent it. Forging alliances with people of the 1st type is far easier, and more productive, but the 2nd type are most of humanity.
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Post Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:58 am

Re: Urban Location: how to survive in it (1 of 3: on your ma

I know for a fact that things will definitely get interesting here in the City once the daily food delivery stops completely. There are defintiely going to be major food riots at first ( that makes the one shown in the old movie Soylent Green look like a pleasant street fair ), then there will come a mass exodus of a major part of the population out of the metropolitan area. Probably only a much smaller population will remain in the city for a few decades or more, that subsistence gardening and community farming can support.
I really don't know at this point in time if I will decide to join the first group or the second.
( And, of of course, there will be the third group, the "Mad Max" type Marauders, ie. the "MZB" gangs, especially if the local police and law enforcement Infrastructure goes as well.. :lol: ).
I remember when ABC News showed that special "doomer" documentary a few years ago called 'Earth 2100' , where experts predict food shortages, displacement and chaos in cities by the year 2050. ( They focused on a future New York City , which was shown as one of the last of the worlds major cities still functioning, until it was flooded in a tsusami, of all things ). They had an interesting take on how to survive in an urban location senario. But If the past is any indication, all the old cities will more than likely eventually become totally abandoned ( ie. Ancient cities such as Ankor Wat, Machu Picchu, Calakmul, etc. ) in a post-peak oil world after the global collapse and die-off.

They still update the show site with some interesting Doomer stuff. Go check it out, if you haven't already.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Earth2100
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Post Wed May 04, 2011 7:25 am

Re: Urban Location: how to survive in it (1 of 3: on your ma

I think survival in an urban environment in a slow crash and a fast crash will be very different, but maybe the way to survive is the same... community. In a slow crash, community means local farmers markets/neighborhood markets, individual gardens, neighborhood watch programs, local schools, service clubs, churches et cetera all taking an active role in maintaining quality of life as much as possible while transitioning to a different future than the one expected. They would want to do things to increase the resiliency of their neighborhoods and communities - community gardens, edible landscaping, food pantries/food storage facilities (put away extras for a rainy day), install community wells and wood fired community bread ovens, create co-ops for dairy product sales/egg sales/hand crafts etc. You could work on things like a central power source - either a solar array or a windmill that could provide SOME power in case of a temporary or permanent outage or grid failure (or rolling blackouts etc). Parks and playgrounds could be planted in field crops instead. Ponds could be dug, and composting community toilets could be built in business areas in empty lots. Abandoned lots could be turned into markets, gardens or cob housing for the homeless. Local barter systems could be encouraged. Agreements could be made between rural farming communities and organized neighborhood co-ops for bulk purchases of grains/potatoes using a CSA model.

In a fast crash, that same community will want to be extrememly proactive - maybe to the point of building a barrier around their neighborhood and arming guards, building self sufficiency gardens and orchards, and acquiring both livestock and guardian animals. Then, make alliances with other organized neighborhoods and sending out recon missions and trade groups. They will eventually need to do all the community building mentioned above, to meet basic needs, but security will have a higher priority.

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Post Wed May 04, 2011 7:44 am

Re: Urban Location: how to survive in it (1 of 3: on your ma

Susan Pfeffer wrote a series of books that, in a way, deal with this urban/rural issue. One (Life As We Knew It) was set in the country (Pennsylvania) and was the most powerful book I read since One Second After. Isolation, freezing, and starving were the biggest obstacles.
Her next book (The Dead and Gone) was set in NYC. Flooding and starvation played a big part here, but it was interesting that the characters were able to do so much "foraging" in their own apartment building, rather that going house to house like in the first book. Also, she suggested that the "money people" in NYC would hold things together (at least in their neighborhoods) and eventually set up "safe towns", accessible by invitation only.
While these books are considered Young Adult, I wouldn't let a pre- or early teen read them. They are just that powerful.
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Post Wed May 04, 2011 10:31 am

Re: Urban Location: how to survive in it (1 of 3: on your ma

madison wrote:
In a fast crash, that same community will want to be extrememly proactive - maybe to the point of building a barrier around their neighborhood and arming guards, building self sufficiency gardens and orchards, and acquiring both livestock and guardian animals. Then, make alliances with other organized neighborhoods and sending out recon missions and trade groups. They will eventually need to do all the community building mentioned above, to meet basic needs, but security will have a higher priority.


Thanks, madison, for the thoughtful inputs. @madison or anyone, then, how fast is fast? It takes time to build gardens, and more than time, but space and other inputs, for livestock and other animals. To me, it feels, that this needs to be building NOW. When crash happens, I feel it will already be to late (sorry for the doomy-ness but i feel it is already too late re: adequate gardens, and hauling in and caring for the livestock).

FlaKarma wrote:Susan Pfeffer wrote a series of books that, in a way, deal with this urban/rural issue. One (Life As We Knew It) was set in the country (Pennsylvania) and was the most powerful book I read since One Second After. Isolation, freezing, and starving were the biggest obstacles.
Her next book (The Dead and Gone) was set in NYC. Flooding and starvation played a big part here, but it was interesting that the characters were able to do so much "foraging" in their own apartment building, rather that going house to house like in the first book. Also, she suggested that the "money people" in NYC would hold things together (at least in their neighborhoods) and eventually set up "safe towns", accessible by invitation only.
While these books are considered Young Adult, I wouldn't let a pre- or early teen read them. They are just that powerful.


I don't know these books. I am going to read them.My daughter is 11 and understands PO better than the majority of people on this planet. I think it depends on how a pre-teen or early-teen has been educated. I reserve my judgement on that one until I have read them. Thanks FlaKarma!
Slow down.... think and live from your heart, that is all that is real

TPTB and MSM and you and i want to have hope... hope is so exhausting. Foster

This is a characteristic of zombies in general, they always manage to look alive no matter what. PM

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Post Wed May 04, 2011 10:53 am

Re: Urban Location: how to survive in it (1 of 3: on your ma

I would do some research on the siege of Sarajevo. There is some good info on how tough it was just surviving day to day.
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