Rare earths matter

Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:06 pm by Picasso Moon

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jan/27/rare-minerals-global-renewables-industry/
Rare Minerals Dearth Threatens Global Renewables Industry, John Vidal, 1/27/12. Some of this information has been posted before, some is new stuff.

Shortages of a handful of rare minerals could slow the future growth of the burgeoning renewable energy industries, and affect countries' chances of limiting greenhouse gas emissions, business leaders were told at the World Economic Forum in Davos this week.
Last year, prices of many scarce minerals exploded, rising as much as 10 times over 2010 levels before dropping back, said PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC).
Terbium, yttrium, dysprosium, europium and neodymium are widely used in the manufacture of wind turbines, solar panels, electric car batteries and energy-efficient lightbulbs. But because these "rare earths" are mined almost exclusively in China, it is becoming increasingly difficult and expensive to source them in the required quantities.
In a survey of some of the largest clean energy manufacturers, 78% told PwC said they were already experiencing instability of supply of rare metals, and most said they did not expect shortages to ease for at least five years. Currently, 95% of the rare earth minerals needed by clean tech industries come from China which has set strict export quotas. Last year China reserved most for its own for its domestic wind, solar and battery industries, shifting costs to the US and Europe which do not mine any of the minerals........
Malcolm Preston, PwC's global sustainability leader, said: "It's a time bomb. Many businesses now recognise that we are living beyond the planet's means. If these industries, supply chains and economies are disrupted by shortages in supply, then the 'luxury of choice' lifestyle many in the Western world have become accustomed to, will also be affected."
Six other core manufacturing industries, including aerospace, automotive and chemicals, were all found to be experiencing shortages. According to the US Congress report published last September, world demand for rare elements is estimated at 136,000 tonnes per year, with global production around 133,600 tonnes in 2010. It is projected to rise to at least 185,000 tonnes a year by 2015.[But what will "demand" be by then?]

Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:12 pm by LindaE

Didn't I read somewhere that the US has supplies of several of the rarer earth minerals, but it's considered too expensive to mine them. And, to boot, the government is riding herd on those mines to keep them from being reopened for mining.

I'll have to look for the link to that one. Where oh where did I put that link?

Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:40 pm by Picasso Moon

LindaE wrote:Didn't I read somewhere that the US has supplies of several of the rarer earth minerals, but it's considered too expensive to mine them. And, to boot, the government is riding herd on those mines to keep them from being reopened for mining.

I'll have to look for the link to that one. Where oh where did I put that link?

The article in the first post mentions this. The government is NOT riding herd to keep the mines from being reopened, it just hasn't been economical to do so.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:59 am by russshackleford

"and most said they did not expect shortages to ease for at least five years. Currently, 95% of the rare earth minerals needed by clean tech industries come from China which has set strict export quotas."

You missed a part with your bolds and underlines Picasso. :roll:

"Rare Earths” is a historical misnomer, as these elements are neither rare, nor earths. I have taken you to task on this subject once before, must we go through it all again?

http://stage.iupac.org/publications/pac/pdf/1993/pdf/6512x2453.pdf

Without significant demand, mining of “rare earths” was considered prohibitively costly due the extraction process being inherently dangerous, seeing as they are often found in deposits containing the radioactive elements uranium and thorium.

The world never planned on China imposing strict export quotas, effectively cutting us off and spiking the price. Hence the United States, European Union, and Mexico all launching WTO legal cases in 2009.

This is similar to your squealing about the manufacturing of polysilicon being the lynchpin of solar, even though manufacturing of the material has now significantly surpassed demand driving prices through the floor.

But your assesment of these materials suits your neo-luddite perspective perfectly.

Oil = bad
Gas = bad
Coal = bad
Solar = bad
Wind = bad
Hydro = bad
Nuclear = bad
Machinery = bad
Television = bad
Technology = bad
Automatons = bad

All being equal, humans should save the planet and kill themselves. :lol:

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:19 am by Picasso Moon

How could i "miss" something i underlined? And YOU missed a key word, Russ, COST! The key to BAU is CHEAP energy. Without it, BAU is cast overboard.
Sorry, Russ, but the planet's resources are finite and thus incapable of supporting a system which requires perpetual exponential growth just to survive. No matter how much huff and puff in hopes of sustaining hi-tech society (mostly, apparently, because you enjoy the toys), it is unsustainable. If you don't get it, you really don't get the thrust of The Oil Age, and you're here thinking that it's about maintaining the essence of the status quo though without oil and with some cosmetic changes. You certainly have company in that, the likes of Shilldo, Daniel Yergin and the various solar/wind/biofuels capitalists. But your world is going down with cheap energy.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:20 am by mcgowanjm

The problem for humans is that we need radioactivity to
live.

But like any drug addict (salt, fats, sugars) we don't know when to stop.

I'm fairly certain that EVERY rare earth is radioactive.

Radioactive Fallout From iPhones and Flat-Screen TVs? | Mother ...

motherjones.com/environment/2012/02/rare-earths-lynas-malaysiaCached

6 days ago – He was referring to how his home might change with the imminent completion of the largest rare-earth refinery in the world. If all goes according ...

If All Goes According To Plan

then you're in Heaven
and ... :twisted:

Which is why Quantum Science is Ignored.....

*DEVELOPING* Asahi Flyover: No spent fuel pool seen in Reactor No. 3 — SFP ‘must’ be in center of screen, however we can’t see any of it (VIDEO)

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:14 pm by spacecase0

what lots of people are not seeing is that engineers love new technology,
all the renewable tech can be done with out the rare earth elements at all.
it just makes it slightly bigger, but it is really not hard to engineer around the problem.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:53 pm by russshackleford

Picasso, you’re painting with a pretty big brush old buddy. I have no problem admitting the planet is finite, I believe Aristotle, and have even seen satellite pictures. I will admit to being an optimist, and I hope human civilization continues long after you and I are physically gone. (Somebody around here has to, or else it’d just be an echo chamber).

But to dismiss technological advancements because of your distaste for all things new isn’t very personally constructive either.

I do believe in hi-tech, but not for “toys” as you degradingly put it. I believe in the microscope and telescope, they were here before the oil age and exponentially expanded the understanding of our universe. I also believe in the devices that transmit our voices and information over long distances, which helps to eliminate our fanatical differences and enhance our species.

Again with “BAU”, I do not think it means what you think it means?

I’m still fairly young, but I can’t ever remember automobile companies raising fuel efficiency or using the words hybrid or electric, when I was a kid. There were no earth days, or recycling pickups. Light bulbs were all incandescent. There was no such thing as LEED Platinum certified, and asbestos and smoking weren’t considered harmful to your health for the longest time.

Things are changing all around you bud, you just have to expand your perspective.

You should research the history of rare earths, and not just in modern investor news articles that perpetuate your hatred of new technologies. Then you’d have known that the only really rare earth amongst them is highly unstable and radioactive promethium. Or that in the 1960’s, a company named Molybdenum, that had no market for bastnasite, invented a market! This is eerily similar to thermal cracking in 1891, or fluid catalytic cracking in 1942.

Or that unlike “fossil fuels”, these elements and the products they are used in, are actually recyclable! But don’t let that get in the way of your fatuous obsession with human technological advancement. :lol:

Sometimes I really worry about you Picasso Moon, I just hope you don't start mail-bombing university professors or high-tech business managers if the total collapse of civilization doesn't come soon enough. I like having you on my internets!

Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:47 pm by Picasso Moon

russshackleford wrote:Picasso, you’re painting with a pretty big brush old buddy. I have no problem admitting the planet is finite, I believe Aristotle, and have even seen satellite pictures. I will admit to being an optimist, and I hope human civilization continues long after you and I are physically gone. (Somebody around here has to, or else it’d just be an echo chamber).

But to dismiss technological advancements because of your distaste for all things new isn’t very personally constructive either.

This isn't about "my distaste for all things new," it's my hatred for the destruction of the planet which all these "advancements" have advanced.

I do believe in hi-tech, but not for “toys” as you degradingly put it. I believe in the microscope and telescope, they were here before the oil age and exponentially expanded the understanding of our universe. I also believe in the devices that transmit our voices and information over long distances, which helps to eliminate our fanatical differences and enhance our species.

Oh really, all these communications devices have helped eliminate fanatical differences? They are FAR worse now than they were when i was a kid. And people gabbing incoherently into cellphones, oblivious to what's around them, or similarly re laptops, devices made via looting raw materials from Africa via slave work and assembled in China sweatshops, which radiate our brains and enable 24/7 work and surveillance, has enhanced our species? Surely you joketh! :roll:

Again with “BAU”, I do not think it means what you think it means?

It means the continuation of the system which has dispossessed the vast majority of humanity, separated it from the means of producing survival needs, exploited the labor power of the dispossessed, and turned every bit of what's natural and living into dead commodities.

I’m still fairly young, but I can’t ever remember automobile companies raising fuel efficiency or using the words hybrid or electric, when I was a kid. There were no earth days, or recycling pickups. Light bulbs were all incandescent. There was no such thing as LEED Platinum certified, and asbestos and smoking weren’t considered harmful to your health for the longest time.
Things are changing all around you bud, you just have to expand your perspective.

Earth days? Recycling? Automobile companies making electric cars for rich yuppies, using scare raw materials and scarce energy? This is what you consider progress? Pretty SICK!!

You should research the history of rare earths, and not just in modern investor news articles that perpetuate your hatred of new technologies. Then you’d have known that the only really rare earth amongst them is highly unstable and radioactive promethium. Or that in the 1960’s, a company named Molybdenum, that had no market for bastnasite, invented a market! This is eerily similar to thermal cracking in 1891, or fluid catalytic cracking in 1942.
Or that unlike “fossil fuels”, these elements and the products they are used in, are actually recyclable! But don’t let that get in the way of your fatuous obsession with human technological advancement.

Right, technology will cure everything. :lol:

Sometimes I really worry about you Picasso Moon, I just hope you don't start mail-bombing university professors or high-tech business managers if the total collapse of civilization doesn't come soon enough. I like having you on my internets!

You are really going overboard, Russ. A good friend of mine worked next door to an office where one of the Unibomber's bombs went off. But going overboard is pretty par for you. Go suck on your hi-tech lollipops!

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:59 pm by ralfy

Wait a minute: isn't it supposed to be the other way round? That is, a "fatuous obsession with human technological advancement" would mean a love, not hatred, for "new technologies," and the illusion that these "new technologies" will render "The Oil Age" irrelevant?

In addition, such "new technologies" coupled with global capitalism will lead to more, not less, resource consumption, thus creating the same predicament: the drive for continuous economic growth (e.g., if there's no market, then create one) in a world with limited resources (a per capita biocapacity of only 1.7 global hectares for the current global population but a per capita ave. consumption rate of 2.6 global hectares).

Also, if the energy returns for various "new technologies" are lower than that of oil or require avoiding an energy trap, then how can it still be "business as usual"? It is likely that more will be forced to use other sources of energy to make up for a lack of oil, but lifestyles cannot continue (e.g., replacing incandescent light bulbs with LEDs or replacing cars with EVs) simply because there won't be enough energy and resources to maintain such, especially as the global population continues to grow together with the demand for necessities.

Ultimately, an obsession with high-tech as a basis for optimism becomes illogical in light of these issues.

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